Pittsburgh. And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. Velour, you would be doing a kindness to yourself and everyone else by stepping back and taking time to pray and breathe. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. If so, a shame he did. Sproul Jr. has done. Christiane wrote: I do agree that we have different views here. The fact that he felt ok about this statement says a lot of about an addicts powers of denial. Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. I speak from some experience on this. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. Excuses it. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. I think God understands this. And I cant thank you enough for the lovely story that you wrote to us yesterday about how your church and clergy loved and cared for that woman church member who was an alcoholic and who wasnt clean and sober. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. To paraphrase a 1950s interview with a trailer-trash Ku Kluxer: hUmLSW>@"4buv @nwdK:Z!n:=YQ2!e.e?e-Ksr}}= `W* 4+Fb4zB %ta D@ulB8A aP~ZL]one_'D=HAq2} (x3`k0m\ Y ^kFS^ZU%\ (Of course, I maintain that our coming to the particular clinic was a godsend, actually. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. I will leave it to you & Velour to work it out. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. Its beyond sin. She was in a very fragile place. Ive seen examples of that, too. So maybe it calls for a TWW update? He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. I am not defending excommunication in any way. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. 1. repetitive and in a rut @ refugee: We asked to leave by the end of the month. Ive been a ligonier for years . We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. And anything less is colluding in killing the alcoholic. Thank you. So I was only saying what the Bible says. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. An argument stands on its own. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. [Update 3/28/19 10:20 am: I have added a couple of tweets. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. * " S A> .,. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. I draw the readers particular attention to Dees phrase: treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. He agreed to go back into out patient treatment. What he did was wrong. A sort of similar tale in our county. Im sorry that Im unable to divulge further, but based on what I know, I say he should be put out, period. Heres my list again: Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! I had forgotten that. And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. Ah, but by their theology, he also bears a certain immunity. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. His license was reinstated early this month with no restrictions. Again, I realize that was not the point of the original argument. The innocent must be protected. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. Someone else mentioned Galatians 6. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. She had trouble finding work, but volunteered at church and around town about 60 hours a week. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. More importantly hes got to want it because he loves his family. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. (I have an NHS-supplied test kit, so this is simple enough.) So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. He said "wine" not alcohol. which doesnt answer your question at all, and indeed I dont suppose improves on what you could have said yourself! Velour wrote: You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. Not impossible. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? ALL LIES. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? 4. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?) As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. This comment seems especially relevant. And yes, we must continue to pray. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? The repairs needed to be done from his unit, and he had a simple and logical solution other than letting the plumber into his unit for repairs: If You Just Stop Using Your Shower, We Wont Have a Problem! Made all the sense in the world to him. I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? Someone tried to organize a bedside vigil, yet this proved unnecessary: many people loved this woman, and they showed up at all hours to sit with her, although she was unconscious. Julie Anne wrote: It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. To me, its the better road than the kick them out approach. so terrifying. Hes not going to jail or treatment? Why not? Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. God have mercy. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. R.C. I remember that you have told us this story before. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Just think of him as the Mark Driscoll of his particular church/whatever denomination he may be claiming these days. Sproul Jr. has done. We had a great time together. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. Why? From the time I was a kid up until my early 30s, I saw various psychiatrists and a psychologist or two along the way. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Ditto for medications, which may need to be changed to find the right one. I am sorry that you are in pain and may have to have surgery. I doubt I will. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Relationships and social interactions matter to many people. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. You got it dead wrong. H.A. However, she does offer us some valuable insight about RCs end game: Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. This is exactly what I suspected might happen. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. I posted that list to you multiple times. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I have experience. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; Someone here posted months ago (and theyve done it several times) about a police officer at their church who was excommunicated and then committed suicide. Why should they be deprived of love and fellowship? When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. (let alone applied in practice?). So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus) Awful. If RC Sproul 2 eventually gets clean and sober and makes amends, with the help of a recovery sponsor who mentors him, I am sure that he will have a lot of wreckage to clean up at his former churches. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. Q. or a swindler [scams, cons] But if you need some level of safety, then be cautious. I dont think you have any real awareness, Julie Anne, of the damage that Barbaras words did to people who lurk here who struggle with addiction. Barbs and sarcasm are a coping mechanism Ive developed from everything Ive been through. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. This is beyond shocking to me. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. Did they brag about how much they can drink, allude to their prowess with the bottle? I dont wish hell on RC Sprouls jr or any other alcoholic but I can guarantee you that their children have been through hell. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. Wine is praised as a gift in scripture. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! But interventions and treatment does work. did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): He's already a menace on the road when sober. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I described this happening upthread. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. I am not sure one can blame leukemia on a toxic waster problem with surety. I understand. Do the Ligonier people believe that a person or a nature died on the Cross? At least, from the description. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. I found that quote on this site: If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Not always. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. They are not consigned to their pasts. The group gathered around him to pray. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? or a drunkard, [substance abuse] If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. 3. a rapist, I know people who are recovering alcoholics who have been diagnosed with bipolar and other problems. Velour, please do not be so quick to assume that because someone failed to mention treatment, that they are against it. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? P.S. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. View Source Suggest Edits Memorial Photos Flowers Created by: Karen Added: 14 Dec 2017 Find a Grave Memorial ID: 185907097 Sponsored by Jack Harper I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. That is them saying that, not me. It was not too long until the did he know the Lord questions started, did I witness to him, you know his blood is on your hands if he is not saved God will hold you accountable A few years later my brother in law was dying and I went to see him, very long story, and I shared with him the Gospel and the love of Christ, He accepted Christ, my church family reminded me that almost all death bed conversions are false conversions and most likely my brother in law died in his sins and went on to a Christless eternity. In time, this changes for the better. I tried really hard to help and could not. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I didnt even over-eat. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). I am sure that had someone else been doing the same actions that RC2 did who wasnt RCs son and bearing RCs same name that they would have been history much earlier. Hopefully one day our judicial system will get that. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. I offered H.A. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! The only place that seems to have stayed on top of giving updates has been the Spinderella Sproul blog, the same blog you linked to in your original post. No, I definitely do support them. I did not see her post in that manner. @ Velour: Lea wrote: So-yeah for women in surgery, but yeah for the men also. My mothers brother died of alcoholism. Interesting points. (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. ". We took him in to help in his recovery. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. ALBERT SPROUL OBITUARY SPROUL ALBERT J. SPROUL, age 81 of Willowick. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. Some of the members (not necessarily the elders) of that church were indeed empathetic and caring, and went out of their way to meet with those who had been put out of the church. Would your answer remain the same? Years ago, I led a Bible study of workplace colleagues in which a young man confessed that he was struggling with excessive drinking because he was the son of an alcoholic. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. He said that his wife Rachelle said it. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. That he should get treatment; and So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? It was in response to this. Its not just the alcohol abuse. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. Instead of surgeries and treatments, all she would have to do is avoid bending her elbow to bring alcohol to her lips and she would be cured., Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. I would not call this grief. I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. Vesta Van Voorhis DeKalb County, Illinois Deaths, 1843-1992 Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007 Court, Governmental & Criminal Records Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics helps Christians show unbelievers the truth, goodness, and beauty of the gospel as the only hope that fulfills our deepest longings. i wish this werent so. Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. R.C. His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. She believes that alcoholics/addicts should be kicked out of the church, and that H.U.G. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. People should not be treated this way. Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? so ridiculous. Perhaps cushion the fall but still let them fall. and fails to get the help he needs . Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one anothers burdens. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. There are phone books with that same information. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation, but your point is otherwise important. do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. I respectfully disagree. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. I think that if RC2 truly loves his children, he will get himself some serious, serious top-drawer psychological and medical help. Yes, help the addicted but not at the expense of the children, they are the true innocent party to it all, they suffer the most. I do not believe that anyone is doing him any favors by enabling him. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. Dont drink wine? Im not contesting that. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. That he should get treatment; and (P.S. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. My mother said He couldnt help it. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is currently listed at 347 Bellview Pl, Sanford, 32771 Florida and is affiliated with the Republican Party of Florida. Some might call it being accountable. As I understand it RC Sproul Jr. is a Calvinist just like his father and thus hold to TULIP., According to the P in TULIP they believe in the perseverance of the saints. This basically states that if one is a true believer or as they put it selected by God for salvation or in their term unconditional election this person will not backslide etc. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). Same in books on domestic violence those who are experts on DV will tell readers dont waste time bringing your abusive husband into marriage counseling, because marriage counseling is ineffective at treating abuse. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. I was diagnosed with clinical depression at a young age. @ Velour: The terrible way I have heard that an alcoholic manipulates others is that he/she will deny drinking, but then plot and plan to do anything that gets them to that next drinkie .. and nothing or no one, not family or innocent people, are considered. I did read your post, Daisy. Mainly because there seems to be little to show for all the years of effort. Velour wrote: Weve all read your points over and over again. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. 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